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Re: What Is A ToeQuest? Some Fragments...
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Re: What Is A ToeQuest? Some Fragments... - 02-17-2008, 10:38 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by not2too View Post
I think that there is a TOE, but that the assumptions, frames of reference and methodologies that have been used so far to attempt to grasp it are the wrong ones. An entirely new approach is called for.

Best,
not2too
For what it's worth to you, more power to you. If by TOE, it is meant the unifying of all the sciences to explain reality, I don't think it can be done using the scientific method.
  
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Re: What Is A ToeQuest? Some Fragments...
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Re: What Is A ToeQuest? Some Fragments... - 02-17-2008, 10:50 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by N0B0DY View Post
For what it's worth to you, more power to you. If by TOE, it is meant the unifying of all the sciences to explain reality, I don't think it can be done using the scientific method.
I think that it is possible to unify all the sciences without using the scientific method.

not2too
  
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Re: What Is A ToeQuest? Some Fragments...
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Re: What Is A ToeQuest? Some Fragments... - 02-17-2008, 11:01 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by N0B0DY View Post
If illusory consciousness provides the tools, then consciousness is prime...the tools are thence illusory, and so must be the reasoning and thought.

The point would then be that the assessed reality, based on the above reasoning and thought, would either have to be illusory or otherwise unprovably objective imo because the only way to prove it is through a conscious means.
Conversely, if it is "physical" reality that is illusory, fictitious (Samsara, Maya), that arises from consciousness, rather than the other way around, then any TOE based on "evidence" from physical reality would also be illusory and fictitious. Is consciousness a by-product of physical reality or vice versa? Can you prove one or the other via the scientific method?
  
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Re: What Is A ToeQuest? Some Fragments...
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Re: What Is A ToeQuest? Some Fragments... - 02-18-2008, 06:03 AM

I see there is a persistent philosophical trend to include the working of the human mind with a search for a TOE. As long as this trend is present, mixing the illusion of consiouness with the reality of the behavior of nature, the advancement of science and analysis of our environment stops.

In this forum, this practice serves to only cast doubt into a quest for the understanding of nature, with deliberate innuendoes toward validity of human thought.

Consciousness gives us the tools of analysis, thought and reason. Tools needed to analyze our environment, scientifically. You stress that consiousness is prime? Prime for being alive, prime for providing us logic and reason. It appears that you then use these tools (logic/reason) to analyze where these tools come from (consciousness).

A fallacy in logic This is a pure philosophical argument that has persisted for ages. Casting dispersions and doubt into the proven scientific process.

Suppose you hire a carpenter to build your kitchen cabinets. Arriving at your home, instead of analysis of procedures required to construct your cabinets, the carpenter sits down and stares at his tools, pondering their origin.

Foolish as this sounds, this is what happens when a philosopher meets a scientist.

Mixing philosophical views with science is wrong. It hinders and at times halts all progress toward undestanding nature.

One must either pursue a quest in philosophy or pursue a quest in science.
Mixing these quests results in a ‘cat chasing its tail’ syndrome, chicken or the egg. Result…NO Progress.

A choice must be made at this fork in the road. Philosophy or Science.
I choose the exterior road to real scientific understand using the tools of reason and logic.
With reason and logic the understanding of mathematics and physics.
Pondering where the tools came from is a philosophical path (vagueness)
Using the tools to gain knowledge is a scientific path (clarity)

Talk about the tools…or use the tools
Question the process of consciousness OR use process of consciousness
Philosophers question the questions…Scientists question the answers.
And nary the twain shall meet………Q7
  
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Re: What Is A ToeQuest? Some Fragments... - 02-18-2008, 08:43 AM

We all have consciousness but why is it that for the same situation we have different reasoning and observations?


Quote:
Originally Posted by quanta07 View Post
Observations are based on reasoning and thought.....
Again, mixing 'consiousness' into the quest for understanding environmental behavior is a mistake.
Consciousness provides us with the tools of reasoning and thought.

Consciousness, ah yes, and what a beautiful illusion it is.........Q7
  
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Re: What Is A ToeQuest? Some Fragments...
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Re: What Is A ToeQuest? Some Fragments... - 02-18-2008, 09:59 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by quanta07 View Post
I choose the exterior road to real scientific understand using the tools of reason and logic.
With reason and logic the understanding of mathematics and physics.
Pondering where the tools came from is a philosophical path (vagueness)
Using the tools to gain knowledge is a scientific path (clarity)

Talk about the tools…or use the tools
Question the process of consciousness OR use process of consciousness
Philosophers question the questions…Scientists question the answers.
And nary the twain shall meet………Q7
Yes, quanta07. You really ponder the human intellectual paradigm in-depth.

I agree with your statement "Using the tools to gain knowledge is a scientific path (clarity)".
Using those scientific tools in a mainstream manner will bring out clear and safe but actually routine works.
Employing the flexibilities of math/equations can bring out rigorously derived frontier works.

However, just mainstream and frontier works are still insufficient to complete a TOE.
Philosophy analyzes will probe deeper and wider than the paths and coverage of physics/GUT.

The bottomland of Nature, IMHO, needs philosophy studies.
Those applications needs physics (and technology).
The wonderland of modern physics provide many good topics to sci-fi.
PreTOE Cosmic Enquiry is now taken care by metaphysics.

Best Regards. Bottomlander
  
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Re: What Is A ToeQuest? Some Fragments...
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Re: What Is A ToeQuest? Some Fragments... - 02-18-2008, 11:52 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by bottomlander View Post
Yes, quanta07. You really ponder the human intellectual paradigm in-depth.

I agree with your statement "Using the tools to gain knowledge is a scientific path (clarity)".
Using those scientific tools in a mainstream manner will bring out clear and safe but actually routine works.
Employing the flexibilities of math/equations can bring out rigorously derived frontier works.

However, just mainstream and frontier works are still insufficient to complete a TOE.
Philosophy analyzes will probe deeper and wider than the paths and coverage of physics/GUT.

The bottomland of Nature, IMHO, needs philosophy studies.
Those applications needs physics (and technology).
The wonderland of modern physics provide many good topics to sci-fi.
PreTOE Cosmic Enquiry is now taken care by metaphysics.

Best Regards. Bottomlander
Obviously, I agree Bottomlander. I think that at a certain point we have to take a few steps back, and have a good look at what the scientific perspective has yielded. Otherwise we "can't see the forest for the trees". A TOE must provide a view of the forest.

As far as your statement:

"Talk about the tools…or use the tools
Question the process of consciousness OR use process of consciousness
Philosophers question the questions…Scientists question the answers.
And nary the twain shall meet……"

Q7, there are methodologies which do USE the process of consciousness as a tool, not just question it, which I will be presenting in this discussion.
(I will not be advocating that scientists become meditators...i.e. use this method before criticizing or dismissing the results...as others, e.g. Ken Wilber, have done.) There are other effective methods which use consciousness to explore the nature of reality that have been developed by scientists (physicists and psychologists) and will be presented.

Best,
not2too
  
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Re: What Is A ToeQuest? Some Fragments... - 02-18-2008, 12:50 PM

Q7,

You had said that consciousness is the illusion and not the empirical reality observed via the scientific method, but if you then say that consciousness provides the required tools for empirical science, it translates into the tools and anything the tools interpret as reality being illusory as well. This part of it is simple logic, though perhaps counter-intuitive because reality is deemed opposite illusion.

The more difficult aspect is actually using the scientific method as a means to justify the proposition for illusory reality. Whereby, strictly speaking, if it is not observed it isn't real; then using this consciously-based method of empiricism, we can infer that proclamations of an illusory reality are in fact more scientific than proclamations of an unobservably-deduced, a priori objective environmental reality.

For you to prove that there is an objective reality other than that subjectively-observed, you would have to be unconscious to observe it.
  
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Re: What Is A ToeQuest? Some Fragments...
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Re: What Is A ToeQuest? Some Fragments... - 02-18-2008, 01:27 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by N0B0DY View Post
Q7,

You had said that consciousness is the illusion and not the empirical reality observed via the scientific method, but if you then say that consciousness provides the required tools for empirical science, it translates into the tools and anything the tools interpret as reality being illusory as well. This part of it is simple logic, though perhaps counter-intuitive because reality is deemed opposite illusion.

The more difficult aspect is actually using the scientific method as a means to justify the proposition for illusory reality. Whereby, strictly speaking, if it is not observed it isn't real; then using this consciously-based method of empiricism, we can infer that proclamations of an illusory reality are in fact more scientific than proclamations of an unobservably-deduced, a priori objective environmental reality.

For you to prove that there is an objective reality other than that subjectively-observed, you would have to be unconscious to observe it.
Q7...
I have never said that it is consciousness that is the illusion. That is what you stated in a previous post...

"Simply put............NO
consciousness is the illusion.......Our enviroment is real........no illusions
Noted environmental behavior stems from confirmed and reconfirmed observation accepted as law.
The behavior is real and can be mapped to an equation. modeled, reproduced at will." (from Q7)

My contention is that it is consciousness that is primary, non-contingent, and that what we take to be reality arises from consciousness...is co-created by consciousness...contingent upon consciousness for its existence...

More in my next post.
not2too
  
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Re: What Is A ToeQuest? Some Fragments...
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Re: What Is A ToeQuest? Some Fragments... - 02-18-2008, 01:42 PM

In order to expand the present discussion from the point of view of the scientific community rather than the philosophical one, I am including excerpts from two sources. I would particularly recommend reading the entire Discover Magazine article about John Wheeler's work. (link provided)

From: Quantum Mind
By Arnold Mindell

Jung in his article "Answer To Job (found in his Collected Works) tells us that God, in essence, needs humanity and the unfolding of human life, to become conscious. This is what physicists like John Wheeler have discovered. An observer today is partially responsible for generating the reality of even the beginning of the universe! A symbolic picture of the universe looking at itself can be seen below. (see attached thumbnail) This is a sketch from Wheeler's 1979 lecture about Einstein, in which Wheeler showed the universe as a sort of being with a tail and an eye. The tail represents the early stages of the universe that is later promoted to concrete reality by means of its own self-consciousness, which itself depends on that unfolding reality.


Excerpts from:
Does the Universe Exist if We're Not Looking?
Eminent physicist John Wheeler says he has only enough time left to work on one idea: that human consciousness shapes not only the present but the past as well
by Tim Folger
http://discovermagazine.com/2002/jun...tart:int=0&-C=

…Wheeler conjectures we are part of a universe that is a work in progress; we are tiny patches of the universe looking at itself— and building itself. It's not only the future that is still undetermined but the past as well. And by peering back into time, even all the way back to the Big Bang, our present observations select one out of many possible quantum histories for the universe…

…Stanford University physicist Andrei Linde believes this quantum paradox gets to the heart of Wheeler's idea about the nature of the universe: The principles of quantum mechanics dictate severe limits on the certainty of our knowledge…

…"You may ask whether the universe really existed before you start looking at it," he says. "That's the same Schrödinger cat question. And my answer would be that the universe looks as if it existed before I started looking at it. When you open the cat's box after a week, you're going to find either a live cat or a smelly piece of meat. You can say that the cat looks as if it were dead or as if it were alive during the whole week. Likewise, when we look at the universe, the best we can say is that it looks as if it were there 10 billion years ago."…

…Linde believes that Wheeler's intuition of the participatory nature of reality is probably right. But he differs with Wheeler on one crucial point. Linde believes that conscious observers are an essential component of the universe and cannot be replaced by inanimate objects…

…"The universe and the observer exist as a pair," Linde says. "You can say that the universe is there only when there is an observer who can say, Yes, I see the universe there. These small words— it looks like it was here— for practical purposes it may not matter much, but for me as a human being, I do not know any sense in which I could claim that the universe is here in the absence of observers. We are together, the universe and us. The moment you say that the universe exists without any observers, I cannot make any sense out of that. I cannot imagine a consistent theory of everything that ignores consciousness. A recording device cannot play the role of an observer, because who will read what is written on this recording device? In order for us to see that something happens, and say to one another that something happens, you need to have a universe, you need to have a recording device, and you need to have us. It's not enough for the information to be stored somewhere, completely inaccessible to anybody. It's necessary for somebody to look at it. You need an observer who looks at the universe. In the absence of observers, our universe is dead."…
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