[not2too]

Originally Posted by dipayankar

Do we need to really look into consciousness?? It is metaphysics and ToE is physics thus these twains need to be kept seperate..

YES...we do need to look into consciousness. Both on this site and in general, many writers and researchers...many physicists included...view consciousness as primary to the nature of reality...and the reality of nature...the context within which any TOE must be conceived. A Theory of EVERYTHING must include more than just the domain of physics. Perhaps, what you are looking to offer is a Physics of Everything...a POE...rather than a TOE. I think Mr. POE would be delighted...and amused at the irony...

[dipayankar]

I think you are mistaking ToE as a ToE of the earth. The ToE should surpass the earth and the earthly beings and encompass the entire Universe. The realm of consciousness does not trespass the boundaries of the earth..

Originally Posted by not2too

YES...we do need to look into consciousness. Both on this site and in general, many writers and researchers...many physicists included...view consciousness as primary to the nature of reality...and the reality of nature...the context within which any TOE must be conceived. A Theory of EVERYTHING must include more than just the domain of physics. Perhaps, what you are looking to offer is a Physics of Everything...a POE...rather than a TOE. I think Mr. POE would be delighted...and amused at the irony...

[quanta07]

Originally Posted by not2too

YES...we do need to look into consciousness. Both on this site and in general, many writers and researchers...many physicists included...view consciousness as primary to the nature of reality...and the reality of nature...the context within which any TOE must be conceived. A Theory of EVERYTHING must include more than just the domain of physics. Perhaps, what you are looking to offer is a Physics of Everything...a POE...rather than a TOE. I think Mr. POE would be delighted...and amused at the irony...

I agree with dipyanker,

This is a scientific forum….
Consciousness is an internal concept, NOTHING to do with the external environment.
This forum is way off the scientific path, off into a world of make-believe, Directions of subject matter have turn to an internal analysis of man…NOTHING scientific, all verbiage about consciousness, a misuse of analytical thought, a path that leads nowhere..
To be conscious is to be alive, receiving input stimuli, compiling and reacting to external
environmental changes.
no2too….This has evolved into a quest of madness and lunacy, spewing verbiage with no bearing to any theory, internal or external. Posting just to see your comments in print……
There is a chat room for this kind of rot..
http://www.toequest.com/index.php?page=consciousness
Study the mind or study science, they are….
TWO DIFFERENT MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVE SUBJECTS
You mix both areas of study, you distort, bias, and corrupt any possible useful factual data, winding up in the ‘Chicken or the egg’ syndrome, with no valid scientific conclusions obtainable. But then, it has become apparent in this forum that this is your goal.

[not2too]

Originally Posted by quanta07

I agree with dipyanker,

This is a scientific forum….
Consciousness is an internal concept, NOTHING to do with the external environment.
This forum is way off the scientific path, off into a world of make-believe, Directions of subject matter have turn to an internal analysis of man…NOTHING scientific, all verbiage about consciousness, a misuse of analytical thought, a path that leads nowhere..
To be conscious is to be alive, receiving input stimuli, compiling and reacting to external
environmental changes.
no2too….This has evolved into a quest of madness and lunacy, spewing verbiage with no bearing to any theory, internal or external. Posting just to see your comments in print……
There is a chat room for this kind of rot..
http://www.toequest.com/index.php?page=consciousness
Study the mind or study science, they are….
TWO DIFFERENT MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVE SUBJECTS
You mix both areas of study, you distort, bias, and corrupt any possible useful factual data, winding up in the ‘Chicken or the egg’ syndrome, with no valid scientific conclusions obtainable. But then, it has become apparent in this forum that this is your goal.

Your post is patronizing and insulting. I had hoped that this level of discourse would not occur in this forum.
To state that the inclusion of consciousness studies in the formulation of any TOE is "madness and lunacy" at this stage in the development of such theories by highly respected physicists as well as philosophers, is itself madness and lunacy.
As far as my "posting just to see your comments in print" is concerned, I do not have to participate in this "forum" in order to do that.
I think that an apology from you is in order.

Best,
not2too

[dipayankar]

not2too, please do not mix physics and philosophy. Even though Einstein was both a philosopher and a scientist, he did not mix them both simply because the basis of both these realms are completely different. Science is based on hard facts and philosophy on the abstract...

Originally Posted by not2too

Your post is patronizing and insulting. I had hoped that this level of discourse would not occur in this forum.
To state that the inclusion of consciousness studies in the formulation of any TOE is "madness and lunacy" at this stage in the development of such theories by highly respected physicists as well as philosophers, is itself madness and lunacy.
As far as my "posting just to see your comments in print" is concerned, I do not have to participate in this "forum" in order to do that.
I think that an apology from you is in order.

Best,
not2too

[melanie]

Originally Posted by dipayankar

not2too, please do not mix physics and philosophy. Even though Einstein was both a philosopher and a scientist, he did not mix them both simply because the basis of both these realms are completely different. Science is based on hard facts and philosophy on the abstract...

The 'whole' is not a philosophy .. it is self evident arising [one without a second] in this immediate NOW

Gravity worked absolutely fine, long before Newton ever appeared on the scene,
When 'we' stick a label on some-thing 'we' already separate the 'whole'


abstract the lack of hard evidence, and yet here we go again with the paradox,
what is hard evidence? but a mind construct.What more evidence do 'we' need?

There is no hard evidence for anything, and what is it 'we' are actually trying
to solve? what it it 'we' are looking for?

What i find remarkable is that questions are raised and when the answers come, they are dismissed as being metaphysical ...

Now what is it 'we' as TOE Questers are looking for??
and why then when the answers come, can't they not be viewed with equal enthusiasm as is the case with the questions raised ?

The ToE Quest is a fragment of the whole conception,
'we' or the IT playing as 'us' is playing a game of hide and seek that's all,

taking this too seriously ....
Is like trying to determine why water is wet..

Thanks for reading,

melanie.

[not2too]

Originally Posted by dipayankar

not2too, please do not mix physics and philosophy. Even though Einstein was both a philosopher and a scientist, he did not mix them both simply because the basis of both these realms are completely different. Science is based on hard facts and philosophy on the abstract...

OK...let's not mix physics and philosophy, although, from the wide view, they are not different. Let's mix physics and consciousness studies...by physicists. Quantum theory and consciousness have been entangled from the start.

Best,
not2too

[not2too]

Originally Posted by melanie

The 'whole' is not a philosophy .. it is self evident arising [one without a second] in this immediate NOW

Gravity worked absolutely fine, long before Newton ever appeared on the scene,
When 'we' stick a label on some-thing 'we' already separate the 'whole'


abstract the lack of hard evidence, and yet here we go again with the paradox,
what is hard evidence? but a mind construct.What more evidence do 'we' need?

There is no hard evidence for anything, and what is it 'we' are actually trying
to solve? what it it 'we' are looking for?

What i find remarkable is that questions are raised and when the answers come, they are dismissed as being metaphysical ...

Now what is it 'we' as TOE Questers are looking for??
and why then when the answers come, can't they not be viewed with equal enthusiasm as is the case with the questions raised ?

The ToE Quest is a fragment of the whole conception,
'we' or the IT playing as 'us' is playing a game of hide and seek that's all,

taking this too seriously ....
Is like trying to determine why water is wet..

Thanks for reading,

melanie.

Very well said Melanie. Thank you.

All the best,
not2too

[dipayankar]

Melanie I think you are confusing the 'discovery of knowledge' with philosophy. Gravity was always there. It was not known to us. But the knowledge has transformed our lives with better transportation equipments being developed keeping in mind the knowledge of gravity in view. Philosophy on the other hand just dwells on the abstract and tries to make sense out of it. Nothing wrong in that except for the fact that this cannot sustain the truth..

Originally Posted by melanie

The 'whole' is not a philosophy .. it is self evident arising [one without a second] in this immediate NOW

Gravity worked absolutely fine, long before Newton ever appeared on the scene,
When 'we' stick a label on some-thing 'we' already separate the 'whole'


abstract the lack of hard evidence, and yet here we go again with the paradox,
what is hard evidence? but a mind construct.What more evidence do 'we' need?

There is no hard evidence for anything, and what is it 'we' are actually trying
to solve? what it it 'we' are looking for?

What i find remarkable is that questions are raised and when the answers come, they are dismissed as being metaphysical ...

Now what is it 'we' as TOE Questers are looking for??
and why then when the answers come, can't they not be viewed with equal enthusiasm as is the case with the questions raised ?

The ToE Quest is a fragment of the whole conception,
'we' or the IT playing as 'us' is playing a game of hide and seek that's all,

taking this too seriously ....
Is like trying to determine why water is wet..

Thanks for reading,

melanie.

[melanie]

Originally Posted by dipayankar

Melanie I think you are confusing the 'discovery of knowledge' with philosophy. Gravity was always there. It was not known to us. But the knowledge has transformed our lives with better transportation equipments being developed keeping in mind the knowledge of gravity in view. Philosophy on the other hand just dwells on the abstract and tries to make sense out of it. Nothing wrong in that except for the fact that this cannot sustain the truth..

Let's remember that it can be difficult for people to understand each other through a public forum medium,
we only get parts of the story, we will either resonate with the context or not,
but we will never be able to see clarity in this manner of speaking and communicating,
it has to come from within you.

And all i am saying is that we can transcend the conceptual universe..

to realize we are the whole universe .. 'we' are mini universes ..of the whole conception. ...Like a Hologram

All known knowledge is already in us, waiting to unfold all 'we' have to do is tap into it ..
Knowledge is known .. One with the knowing ..There is no new knowledge.

It is Whole in this Conception.

'We' are the living testimony of a perfect whole intelligent being .. a spark of the one infinite being.

The whole conception had to be first, or else this 'reality' would be impossible.

A story has to be written first before it can be published.

you cannot have one chapter of a book, that is not a book.

So in this book of life it is known .. by an author unknown.
A very strange mystery indeed.

Some people are skeptical about things that are not tangible
and that hard facts are needed to relate to reality
kinda like you have to see it to believe it....
but things are not what they seem...
At the end of the day we all believe in what we want to believe ..
and that will never change.. it is worlds within worlds..
but no-thing is ever separate from the whole.. that would be impossible.
There is no separation.it's all one beautiful picture.
In our creativity let us pause every once and a while
and ponder the Way of the Heart and infuse our creativity with a selfless Love, born of self-transcendence.
This is a personal experience, it cannot be taught nor explained
it has to be experienced, by the individual, to try to describe it,
would be like trying to describe the taste of an orange to someone
who has never tasted an orange.


I have some info here on levels of learning.....

Levels of learning
How do we 'read' patterns in energy to produce information about self and cosmos in such a way that we can overcome the seemingly contradictory or incompatible domains of scientific and spiritual knowledge?

One way of dealing with this is to cultivate what I call the 'four gifts of knowing'. I believe that we come into the world with different innate capacities or potentials for learning about ourselves and how we fit into nature. These capacities, or 'gifts', are: the Scientist's Gift of the senses (and empirical methodology), the Philosopher's Gift of reason, the Shaman's Gift of participatory feeling and alternative states of consciousness, and the Mystic's Gift of 'transcendental' direct experience, unmediated by the senses or conceptual processing, and often accessed via sacred silence.

If we apply these four gifts to developing a science of consciousness, then the Scientist's Gift opens the way for investigating what the brain is, how it works, and how it correlates with mind. It gives us data and descriptions. The Philosopher's Gift enables us to talk about why we can know (or not know) what consciousness is, and why we can (or cannot) talk about it. The Philosopher's Gift gives us reasons and explanations.

The Shaman's Gift equips us to see and know where consciousness can take us - trusting in the wisdom of the body (our own body, the Earth's body, and the great body of the Cosmos itself). The Shaman's Gift gives us deeper vision into subtle realms. Finally, the Mystic's Gift of sacred silence is the source of intuition and transcendence, gateway to the clearing of consciousness and the unspeakable domain of spirit. The Mystic's Gift brings us closer to knowing who guides the mind.

Each of these epistemological gifts is useful and appropriate for exploring different aspects or levels of reality. For example, we can apply them to the four levels in the Great Chain of Being: Spirit, Soul, Mind, Matter. Taking them in reverse:
o Matter: To know objects in space-time, we need to perceive them with our senses, employing the Scientist's Gift and method of sensory empiricism. This is the realm of sensory intelligence.
o Mind: To know objects in the abstract domain of conceptual space, we need to use the Philosopher's Gift of language and reason. We need to be able to juxtapose and compare different words and ideas. This is the realm of intellectual intelligence.
o Soul: To know entities in the domain of soul (the domain of forces, and the flow of time), we need to open up to the Shaman's Gift of feeling, emotions, and alternative states of consciousness beyond the ordinary waking rational mind. We need to engage and participate in intersubjective shared feelings. This is the realm of emotional intelligence.
o Spirit: To 'know' the domain of Spirit, the dimensionless domain of the ground of all being, we need to let go of all separation between knower and known, between subject and object, between knowing and being. Here we must open up to the Mystic's Gift of transcendence - beyond all distinctions, beyond information, beyond thought, even beyond knowledge and experience itself. This is the silent realm of spiritual wisdom.

The Mystic's Gift, then, is ultimately utterly beyond all expression in thought or language because it is not an object of knowledge. It is the nondual integration of all objects and subjects - even beyond the union of intersubjects in universal communion. Perhaps the wisest advice for accessing and cultivating this gift is to simply let go and pay attention to the divine, eternal 'shhhh' - the zero-point of sacred silence forever open to us now.