[melanie]

quanta07:Consciousness is an internal concept, NOTHING to do with the external environment.

ONE: Not two. Where is there any room for a subject observer and an object observed in That? It is impossible.

Can anyone get their head around that concept?




A child can .. just watch them at play..
a child doesn't even know the existence of the word concept.

Our reality is a circle there is no beginning or end it is a closed loop .. infinity.
Cycles and circles dominate, the entity is Born entering into a circle of childlike simplicity ... then moving around into *BLEEP*
then back around into childlike simplicity and then Death ..

An endless cycle of life .. the wheel of life..

[melanie]

=melanie:Now what is it 'we' as TOE Questers are looking for?? and why then when the answers come, can't they not be viewed with equal enthusiasm as is the case with the questions raised ?

When answers come..... do they ever come, .. that is the question?
the truth is there are no answers,
the answer is already in the question. [Conceived] in THIS IS-ness arising NOW.
When we search for meaning...
The eye is looking for the eye...we know this instinctively.

Try to let go of the little 'i' to know who and what 'you' are.
Do 'we' get attached to our personal little stories, yes 'we' all like a good story.

There is only ONE story though.........just this NOW

This info is not even spiritual, for that is just another concept for this self- evident : THIS.

I personally know absolutely nothing about science, physics, or mathematics, or anything remotely academically,
but i do know there is only ONE of us here. We all know different things in this story.
We are all the same book just different paragraphs ..

[not2too]

Originally Posted by melanie When answers come..... do they ever come, .. that is the question? the truth is there are no answers, the answer is already in the question. [Conceived] in THIS IS-ness arising NOW. When we search for meaning... The eye is looking for the eye...we know this instinctively. Try to let go of the little 'i' to know who and what 'you' are. Do 'we' get attached to our personal little stories, yes 'we' all like a good story. There is only ONE story though.........just this NOW This info is not even spiritual, for that is just another concept for this self- evident : THIS. I personally know absolutely nothing about science, physics, or mathematics, or anything remotely academically, but i do know there is only ONE of us here. We all know different things in this story. We are all the same book just different paragraphs ..

As always...beautifully expressed in the last three posts Melanie...about as well expressed as is possible with words...then...
"Show me a man who has forsaken words...I'd like to have a word with him."
CHUANG TZU

Best,
not2too

[dipayankar]

I do not necessarily agree with this post. But everyone has a right to their own opinion..

Originally Posted by melanie Let's remember that it can be difficult for people to understand each other through a public forum medium, we only get parts of the story, we will either resonate with the context or not, but we will never be able to see clarity in this manner of speaking and communicating, it has to come from within you. And all i am saying is that we can transcend the conceptual universe.. to realize we are the whole universe .. 'we' are mini universes ..of the whole conception. ...Like a Hologram All known knowledge is already in us, waiting to unfold all 'we' have to do is tap into it .. Knowledge is known .. One with the knowing ..There is no new knowledge. It is Whole in this Conception. 'We' are the living testimony of a perfect whole intelligent being .. a spark of the one infinite being. The whole conception had to be first, or else this 'reality' would be impossible. A story has to be written first before it can be published. you cannot have one chapter of a book, that is not a book. So in this book of life it is known .. by an author unknown. A very strange mystery indeed. Some people are skeptical about things that are not tangible and that hard facts are needed to relate to reality kinda like you have to see it to believe it.... but things are not what they seem... At the end of the day we all believe in what we want to believe .. and that will never change.. it is worlds within worlds.. but no-thing is ever separate from the whole.. that would be impossible. There is no separation.it's all one beautiful picture. In our creativity let us pause every once and a while and ponder the Way of the Heart and infuse our creativity with a selfless Love, born of self-transcendence. This is a personal experience, it cannot be taught nor explained it has to be experienced, by the individual, to try to describe it, would be like trying to describe the taste of an orange to someone who has never tasted an orange. I have some info here on levels of learning..... Levels of learning How do we 'read' patterns in energy to produce information about self and cosmos in such a way that we can overcome the seemingly contradictory or incompatible domains of scientific and spiritual knowledge? One way of dealing with this is to cultivate what I call the 'four gifts of knowing'. I believe that we come into the world with different innate capacities or potentials for learning about ourselves and how we fit into nature. These capacities, or 'gifts', are: the Scientist's Gift of the senses (and empirical methodology), the Philosopher's Gift of reason, the Shaman's Gift of participatory feeling and alternative states of consciousness, and the Mystic's Gift of 'transcendental' direct experience, unmediated by the senses or conceptual processing, and often accessed via sacred silence. If we apply these four gifts to developing a science of consciousness, then the Scientist's Gift opens the way for investigating what the brain is, how it works, and how it correlates with mind. It gives us data and descriptions. The Philosopher's Gift enables us to talk about why we can know (or not know) what consciousness is, and why we can (or cannot) talk about it. The Philosopher's Gift gives us reasons and explanations. The Shaman's Gift equips us to see and know where consciousness can take us - trusting in the wisdom of the body (our own body, the Earth's body, and the great body of the Cosmos itself). The Shaman's Gift gives us deeper vision into subtle realms. Finally, the Mystic's Gift of sacred silence is the source of intuition and transcendence, gateway to the clearing of consciousness and the unspeakable domain of spirit. The Mystic's Gift brings us closer to knowing who guides the mind. Each of these epistemological gifts is useful and appropriate for exploring different aspects or levels of reality. For example, we can apply them to the four levels in the Great Chain of Being: Spirit, Soul, Mind, Matter. Taking them in reverse: o Matter: To know objects in space-time, we need to perceive them with our senses, employing the Scientist's Gift and method of sensory empiricism. This is the realm of sensory intelligence. o Mind: To know objects in the abstract domain of conceptual space, we need to use the Philosopher's Gift of language and reason. We need to be able to juxtapose and compare different words and ideas. This is the realm of intellectual intelligence. o Soul: To know entities in the domain of soul (the domain of forces, and the flow of time), we need to open up to the Shaman's Gift of feeling, emotions, and alternative states of consciousness beyond the ordinary waking rational mind. We need to engage and participate in intersubjective shared feelings. This is the realm of emotional intelligence. o Spirit: To 'know' the domain of Spirit, the dimensionless domain of the ground of all being, we need to let go of all separation between knower and known, between subject and object, between knowing and being. Here we must open up to the Mystic's Gift of transcendence - beyond all distinctions, beyond information, beyond thought, even beyond knowledge and experience itself. This is the silent realm of spiritual wisdom. The Mystic's Gift, then, is ultimately utterly beyond all expression in thought or language because it is not an object of knowledge. It is the nondual integration of all objects and subjects - even beyond the union of intersubjects in universal communion. Perhaps the wisest advice for accessing and cultivating this gift is to simply let go and pay attention to the divine, eternal 'shhhh' - the zero-point of sacred silence forever open to us now.

[melanie]

dipayankar Re: What Is A ToeQuest? Some Fragments... I do not necessarily agree with this post. But everyone has a right to their own opinion..

That is perfectly ok dip, 'you' are only playing you're part





As for agreeing or disagreeing .....> >

"If you understand, things are just as they are; if you do not understand, things are just as they are."



As for understanding ......> >

The essence of all knowledge is knowing - knowledge does not lead through some duration of time to 'a state of knowing'.
- Knowing is NOT a 'state' and it is timelessly present NOW -


Happy NOW to everyone

[not2too]

Meanwhile…back to Nick Herbert's Quantum Tantra…

To quote further from the article mentioned earlier in this thread:

"At the heart of quantum tantra will be a new kind of measurement that I call "rapprochement" to distinguish it from the act of measurement in conventional physics. While an ordinary measurement informs us about a thing's outsides, rapprochement connects the observer to an object's heretofore hidden insides, allowing him or her to directly experience the inner lives of quantum systems.

As conventional measurement cannot penetrate to the inside of an object to examine its quantum potentia because every conventional measurement, no matter how delicate, inevitably triggers a quantum jump that erases all potentia save one. This new kind of measurement--rapprochement--on the other hand, connects the mind of the observer directly to the object's potentia without the intervention of a quantum jump. The full content of the object's inner life is adjoined to the inner life of the observer and their intermingled potentias mutually enrich each other, without memorializing or prejudicing one potentia over another.

To achieve rapprochement one needs a way of connecting the mind of the observer to the "mind" of the object without making records; one needs a so-called "oblivious link" which physically couples the brain's consciousness to the object in question without initiating a quantum jump. Since the inner lives of physical objects are almost certainly incomprehensible in human terms, the first truly usable oblivious links will no doubt be established between two human quantum centers of consciousness, not between a human consciousness and the insides of some "inanimate" system. Quantum-intimate brain-matter links with non-human beings will come later, after we have practiced such linkage with humans."

I believe that hunter-gatherer/shamanic cultures have used a type of "rapprochement" for thousands of years. This may be observed in their hunting and medicinal plant/herb gathering techniques and may be "medicine assisted" or not. Accounts of hunters "merging" with jungle and prey…"becoming" the hunted, not just tracking it, while admittedly anecdotal, are too numerous to mention, as are tales of how medicine people are "talked to and drawn to" a distant tree or plant with healing properties. I have personally experienced this (without "medicine") while alone in the woods very early in the morning, supposedly squirrel hunting. When I was very young my father taught me the trick of achieving a certain type of stillness, after entering the woods, which allowed me to "disappear" as the woods came alive again. In a few instances, I could feel the creatures moving about and had to look down at my legs to see if I still existed. Strange experience, barely remembered.

I think that Nick Herbert's attempts to develop a method of reliably opening up this way of interfacing with reality are of the utmost importance and should be followed. More on this later…

Further…
not2too

[dipayankar]

I agree with your definitions...

Originally Posted by melanie That is perfectly ok dip, 'you' are only playing you're part As for agreeing or disagreeing .....> > "If you understand, things are just as they are; if you do not understand, things are just as they are." As for understanding ......> > The essence of all knowledge is knowing - knowledge does not lead through some duration of time to 'a state of knowing'. - Knowing is NOT a 'state' and it is timelessly present NOW - Happy NOW to everyone

[not2too]

Originally Posted by melanie As for understanding ......> > The essence of all knowledge is knowing - knowledge does not lead through some duration of time to 'a state of knowing'. - Knowing is NOT a 'state' and it is timelessly present NOW - Happy NOW to everyone

Rapproachement (see quantum tantra post, above) is also knowing.

Best,
not2too

[not2too]

I have decided on stillness...and silence...for awhile...to see what bubbles up...

Further,
not2too

[melanie]

No-Mind

The flower invites the butterfly with no-mind;

The butterfly visits the flower with no-mind.

The flower opens, the butterfly comes;
The butterfly comes, the flower opens.
I don't know others,
Others don't know me.
By not-knowing we follow nature's course.



Zen Poetry by Zen Master Ryokan



If you say you know ...... You do not ... U.G.K.

You are the known!

Every- 'thing' is Known ... (One with the Knowing)