The Dream

[austintorn@aol.com]

Thank you Melanie...I would like to hear you opinion on these topics also. Learning the extremes of a particular topic, in my opinion develop the understanding of what each one really means. For example, Good is commonly known to be the opposite of bad. If either ceased to exist, lets say "bad" ceased to exist for the sake of argument, would good still be good? Good is only good when we have bad to compare it to...and i believe that good, in the absence of bad would become normal. But then again, argument is a never ending circle of opinion, and i could argue that normality is that of our current perception of what we accept to be normal. My point is that every equal has an opposite, and they envelop the meaning of each other through the contradiction defining their existence. Since my philosophy is that there is no conclusion, I decided it may need some revision. I decided, at one time, that because there is no conclusion, the answer to the questions directing knowledge lies outside of knowledge itself. To come to a definite conclusion, you must let go of knowledge itself, because the answer must come before the question and questioning the answer strays you further from the truth. Why complex answering a question with more questions? I believe you can either live the dream(choosing "perfection"), or understand the dream(choosing knowledge).

Evil is very clear in some cases, that which is done against a person, and so we have civil laws for this.

Other "evils" may be relative and even wrongly classified. For example, in the world and even here on ToeQuest there are those who invent and even detail the invisible realm, and even more astoundingly, preach this supposition as the absolute truth, which is even itself an unethical deception. It is then further that anything contrary to this flawed "concept of good" gets labeled as "evil". Then they, or even nations, get mad and attempt to—you guessed it—try to hurt the person or many people, which is a definite evil. Eventually then get banned, as on ToeQuest, or, in the larger world of war, die.

[Vincent Wee-Foo]

Since my philosophy is that there is no conclusion, I decided it may need some revision.

The above statement is a logical paradox; it would lead to false knowledge in the illusion of knowing under the delusionary circumstances it creates.

A philosophy that there is no conclusion is also not conclusive by its own definition, it could creates a fundamental dichotomy pair that would be jointly exhaustive to infinitely regress in linguistic logic for everything it attempts to reason as it is, with the ambiguities it therefore could paradoxically explain everything and infallibly conclude anything inconclusively.

It is just a nitpicking here for the benefit of knowledge in our perceived reality, on overall I agree with the concept of dream you are presenting thus far and best to you.

[austintorn@aol.com]

The Dreamer

The shadowy and imaginary figure of
The Keeper of the Kinds lurks unseen
In the center of the universe.

Once he was the sun shining on all mankind,
Giving them life in their time,
Or perhaps he had only dreamed this
On some hazy day long ago.

Days of lightning thundered into nights
As the same day rebroke again and again,
The cycle of the seasons ever going ‘round.

He had long since forgotten his birth
Through fire and time,
Having no earliest memory, anyway.

Silently he walked,
Even though there was no one to
Hear the footsteps of a lone man
Walking nowhere through empty space.

He walked on and on—
But he could never escape
From the center of the Universe,
For it had no boundary, no circumference,
And therefore its center was everywhere and nowhere.
Finally, he sat down.

In his mind’s eye at the center of a Universe
Receding in all directions,
The Keeper of the Kinds turned
Ever so slowly in his chair
And stared out the window into Humanland.

He cared little for what he saw
Since he’d seen it all before.
He cared even less about me or you.

Most of the time he cared only for order,
And rarely for naught except
On those hyper days when he wondered
I fleas had fleas or if he might ever
Become his own Keeper’s Keeper.

Well, this was one of those days,
And so on this day the Entropy Devil
Was kinged for a time.

Henry Humpersnickle, one of the kind,
Was indeed wary of being caught up
In the scheme of things,
So he stumbled onto an escape from reality.

After Henry went to sleep
He dreamed that he had awakened,
But, at first, upon actually awakening,
He didn’t even remember it;
But, that was good,
For then neither did the Keeper
Take much note of it either.

Thence, Henry awoke, in dream only,
In a strange world,
But he thought that it was real.

All of these events had almost happened before,
But were unique since one grain of sand
Had shifted ever so slightly
(By the length of a blue light wavelength).

The Keeper, an eternal determinist, was not upset,
For he knew that this might happen someday,
As sure as he knew that the entire contents
Of an encyclopedia might be represented somewhere
In the non repeating expansion of pi (3.1416… )
That went on forever, all of which, of course,
He tried to hold within the extent of his mind,
But, of course, could not.

However, lately there was talk from his own Keeper
That potential infinities need not be exhaustive.
Nevertheless, he could never know everything,
And didn’t care to anymore,
for only his own Keeper could unlock
Life’s two Yin/Yang boxes,
Each of which contained the other’s key.

Meanwhile, a Bishop at Queen’s Knight 10**11**9
Had attacked the pawn at King’s Bishop 5**5**6,
Diverting the attention of the Keeper
And sending illusions of ripples through Henry’s world line.

Although it was still questionable
As to whether all events
Must eventually happen in a world of illusions,
Henry had already made the question academic,
For Henry had now dreamt of dreaming,
And, what’s more,
He became very much aware of it
And was quite lucid;
Thus, the Keeper’s grip on him loosened,
And Henry’s ripples became a much smoother.

Soon there would be no sign
That Henry’s pebble had even slipped
Beneath the surface.

Indeed, it could no longer even be determined
If the pawn was still under attack,
Or even who this new Henry was,
For there was no one around to answer the question.

The Keeper did not miss Henry’s new incarnation,
For the elements of his Universe
Still constituted a tautology on Nature’s thumbnail.

Ice winds filled Henry’s vacuum ,
And, as he dreamt of dreaming and awakening,
The fates of his chances answered
To none other than the chances of his fate.

As his own Keeper, Henry kept to himself.
Being alone, as a being alone,
Henry no longer bothered with keeping track
Of time or movement since this was quite impossible
With no one around.

It was all he could do to remember the day
That the monsters came.

[melanie]

Thank you Melanie...I would like to hear you opinion on these topics also.

Thanks for your reply Spencer.

All I want to say is that I resonate with your thoughts and so I'm attracted to your ideas, however, I can not be inside your dream,
just as you cannot be inside my dream, all we can do is resonate.
I want to keep this very plain and simple, mainly because it can get too complicated, becoming mentally draining, especially when trying to describe my own personal experiential view point.

I believe, that there is only One Consciousness, the contents of this consciousness are not separate from consciousness...
and because we cannot see consciousness, then the only logical conclusion is that reality is no-thing other than dreamscape.

Dreamer and dream are ONE...but who is the dreamer?

We can only assume that it is Consciousness....we know the dream, because we are that dream, as images seen, we are the seen,
we are the dreamt characters.
BUT,can anything see itself? not really.
Can consciousness see itself...only as itself perhaps,, similarly like in our own night-time dreams,
when images are appearing in your consciousness,
but they are only dreamed characters, they have no independent life of their own separate from the dreamer.
and well, it's exactly the same idea, happening in waking life IMHO that's how I personally visualize reality.

Another thing we have to ask ourselves....Who is 'thinking' ?

We think that 'we' are thinking, but maybe 'the creature'(us) - is just itself a self arising thought in the void.

These thoughts just keep on arising, like russian's dolls -doll within a doll -dream within a dream, worlds within worlds,
unseparated, yet everyone unique.
Many of ONE

[melanie]

Thanks for your reply Spencer.

All I want to say is that I resonate with your thoughts and so I'm attracted to your ideas, however, I can not be inside your dream,
just as you cannot be inside my dream, all we can do is resonate.

OK, so what do I mean when I say I cannot be inside your dream, and you cannot be inside mine?

Apparent consciousnesses can re-cognise, re-member, thus resonate with other apparent consciousnesses
because it is the same one consciousness recognising itself.
However, because you are an apparent separate idea of that consciousness,
I cannot know you, because ideas cannot know ideas, ideas are concepts, that only consciousness knows.

This is my opinion only ... The idea that there is a 'me' is only a 'thought'
that thought arises from the void, nowhere.
So therefore, I am a 'thought' .....so what is it that knows this 'thought'? it is my conscious awareness that knows it.
'Things' are only known in relationship to something else. There are no 'spaces' in between anything. It's all interconnected.
When awareness knows sensation consciousness is born.

Consciousness knows all thoughts,one with the knowing.
And yet, 'thought's' cannot know other 'thought's'
because there is only one place that thoughts come from and that's the only knower there is.
'You' are prior to the thought of yourself. There is no separation here.

And that place is called consciousness or the void.

This void is no-thing appearing as every-thing.

And the ultimate paradox is this... although the seeing cannot see itself, here it is, plainly seen, and yet who is seeing?
If we look in the mirror to see if we can see who is seeing, all we see is our reflection looking back, if we look behind the mirror,
there is nothing there.
So we are in effect an illusion / a mirage reflection.
We are the residue of an idea held in consciousness.

So the ultimate paradox is that we are nothing appearing as everything.
Paradoxes do not really exist in reality, they are only known ideas in consciousness.

Does this make any sense to you Spencer? All you can do is resonate with what I am saying or not.

The thing is this, all of the mystical writers of past and present, call it the ineffable, and it's definitely that, they were right about that?

Sometimes I confuse the hell out of myself, trying to put into words what I want to say ...


I don't even care if people think I'm off my trolly, because my world makes sense to me,
and I know that they could not possibly be in my world.
and I also know that all these apparent separate worlds are superimposed within the ONE CONSCIOUSNESS.

For example: When I communicate with Drifter, we are resonating within the same one consciousness,
we instantly re-cognise each other, we understand each other,
however, I do not and will never know his personal or private thoughts.
Because he, is in his own little reality bubble.
Yet all bubbles are from the same ocean.



“A mystic knows without knowledge, without intuition or information, without contemplation or description or revelation. Mystics are not themselves.”

- Attar (Sufi Poet)

[melanie]

All I want to say is that I resonate with your thoughts and so I'm attracted to your ideas, however, I can not be inside your dream,
just as you cannot be inside my dream, all we can do is resonate.

What I meant by the underlined is that I am resonating with 'your apparent consciousness' and the way it is expressing itself.
However, it is not your consciousness, you haven't got consciousness, consciousness has got you.

That's the illusion some of us do not see, that it only appears to be our consciousness. It's very subtle.



''Beyond the concepts of right and wrong there is a field I'll meet you there'' ~ Rumi



And all our yesterdays have lighted fools
The way to dusty death. Out, out, brief candle!
Life's but a walking shadow, a poor player
That struts and frets his hour upon the stage
And then is heard no more: it is a tale
Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury,
Signifying nothing.
~ Shakespeare
The obvious meaning is that life is like a bad play.

Life is really very beautiful and simple, it's just that we like to complicate the hell out of it.

[austintorn@aol.com]

So therefore, I am a 'thought' .....so what is it that knows this 'thought'? it is my conscious awareness that knows it. — Mel

That would really be Brahman's thoughts, as dream images have no thoughts unto themselves, or even the 'I' of a self, but perhaps Brahman somehow localized a self into an actual you.

The other thing about consciousness injecting pictures and videos of pseudo-life to… somewhere?… would be that our retinas and all the visual processing behind it in the brain would not really be doing anything and so, then, we'd have to wonder why they evolved, along with the same for all the other senses, memory, etc., and all the other bodily systems, not to mention the entire earth and universe being here.

[melanie]

So therefore, I am a 'thought' .....so what is it that knows this 'thought'? it is my conscious awareness that knows it. — Mel

That would really be Brahman's thoughts, as dream images have no thoughts unto themselves, or even the 'I' of a self, but perhaps Brahman somehow localized a self into an actual you.

Yes, it would be Brahmans thoughts, Brahman would be realising /seeing itself - as and through it's dreamed character MEL
mel being the reflective image of Brahman.
Every creature,plant,flower, tree, bird, or person in reality is the reflective image of Brahman.
Just like in our own dreams we dream at night,
where each character appears to be a separate entity walking around or what ever they are doing
--- and yet those images are not separate entities apart from the dreamer, they are appearing within the dreamer, which is you,
but you too are an aspect, a thought in this same one consciousness.

[melanie]

So therefore, I am a 'thought' .....so what is it that knows this 'thought'? it is my conscious awareness that knows it. — Mel

That would really be Brahman's thoughts, as dream images have no thoughts unto themselves, or even the 'I' of a self, but perhaps Brahman somehow localized a self into an actual you.

Yes, I agree with that Austin.

Here is a small essay, by RCE that may sum up what you've said..

"The Real according to Rudolf Christoph Eucken, is an independent spiritual world, unconditioned by the apparent world of sense.

To know it and to live in it is man's true destiny. His point of contact with it is personality: the inward fount of his being: his heart, not his head. Man is real, and in the deepest sense alive, in virtue of this free personal life-principle within him; but he is bound and blinded by the ties set up between his surface-intelligence and the sense-world. The struggle for reality must be a struggle on man's part to transcend the sense-world, escape its bondage. He must renounce it, and be "re-born" to a higher level of consciousness; shifting his centre of interest from the natural to the spiritual plane. According to the thoroughness with which he does this, will be the amount of real life he enjoys. The initial break with the "world," the refusal to spend one’s life communing with one’s own cinematograph picture, is essential if the freedom of the infinite is to be attained. We are amphibious creatures: our life moves upon two levels at once—the natural and the spiritual. The key to the puzzle of man lies in the fact that he is "the meeting point of various stages of Reality." All his difficulties and triumphs are grounded in this. The whole question for him is, which world shall be central for him—the Real, vital, all-embracing life we call spirit, or the lower life of sense? Shall "Existence," the superficial obvious thing, or "Substance," the underlying verity, be his home? Shall he remain the slave of the senses with their habits and customs, or rise to a plane of consciousness, of heroic endeavour, in which—participating in the life of spirit—he knows reality because he is real?


Iow's, We are in the world but not of it. We have one foot in each. This is what Jesus spoke of.
We cannot just be a physical being, that wouldn't make sense, we would only be half a story or being.

[melanie]

The other thing about consciousness injecting pictures and videos of pseudo-life to… somewhere?… would be that our retinas and all the visual processing behind it in the brain would not really be doing anything and so, then, we'd have to wonder why they evolved, along with the same for all the other senses, memory, etc., and all the other bodily systems, not to mention the entire earth and universe being here.

The brain and consciousness are the same thing, the brain is in consciousness and consciousness is in the brain.

The brain is doing everything mechanical -- and so is the body, mind, your emotions... etc etc.
Almost everything is working entirely without your will or consciousness.
So you could say we are the unconscious, only becoming conscious on re-membering or re-cognising ourself via sensation.
(when awareness knows sensation consciousness is born)
90% of the time we are running on automatic pilot.
It is consciousness that is evolving, as it becomes more and more aware of itself, through the portal of the mind ( the point of contact)

We are unconscious biological machines, only becoming aware of ourselves via sensation, or a thought arising, which is a movement in consciousness, it is re-cognition, a re-membering.
anything that you are not aware of is unconscious, mechanical.

Who is aware? No-one knows, yet clearly known, one with the knowing..... hence the saying ... ( doing is done ~ no doer thereof)


The thing is "unconsciousness" is really a persons entire life, only at very limited moments in their life have they been conscious.
Awakening to the dream is realising that you are not the actual finite self 'per-se' but the infinite eternal conscious observer of the unconscious.That is when the dreamer becomes lucid in it's own dream.
You are outside of the image that you feel you are, you are infinite awareness looking in at yourself...Which is really no-self.

Biologically speaking we are organic machines. During hunger the body will even consume from itself if not given food.
So too is every other earth bound species of animal or plant -- and it works at a very limited spectrum of life and existence.
We get no credit for mechanicalness, because then it is not us who thinks but IT that thinks and IT is possessed by the world.
It becomes like a engine,an engine doesn't start by itself, something outside of it starts it.
And when it is on, it continues until it runs out of gas.

Everything is beautiful simple and perfect just as it is ... it is only the mind that say otherwise, it is the mind that make distinctions, differences where there are none.
Only the mind brain organism the intellect would say there is good and evil, however, this is a lie, because non of these ideas exist in reality, they are only known, by the only knower there is and that is consciousness.
It's all the play of consciousness alone...Iow's Imagination / dream...and the dream is real.

Further.....we really do live in a perfect environment and evolving system.

There is biblical support for this view as well in this.
Deuteronomy 32:4
He is the Rock, his work is perfect:

Many believe that this perfection was destroyed by man in Genesis.
How perfection can make imperfect choices is beyond me but most think that Genesis was the fall of man.
I do not agree because I cannot see man as complete without the knowledge of good and evil.
Some do. They, I think are misguided.
I believe that we live in evolving perfection.

When Darwin found the Galapagos Islands, he found just that.
A system that was as perfect as it could be at that point in time.
I stretch what he found to the whole of creation and see it and all of us as perfect as we can be.
It is demonstrable that things cannot be otherwise than as they are- for as all things have been created for some end, they must necessarily be created for the best end.
If things are always as good as they can be then we can say that things are perfect and moving continuously towards a more perfect state.
If you see perfection as a stagnant unchanging condition then you may want to use good and getting better
At all times.
Scripture says that God looked upon the garden of Eden and even knowing what evil and sin would transpire there, called it good.
Evolution, even with competition/evil, must be recognised as the most perfect system available to us.
To me, either God or nature has provided us with evolving perfection.
If God is to maintain His perfection and that of His works so as not to back slide then things must be perfect and it is to us to recognise it.
Do you recognise our perfect environment over time or do you see God’s perfect works as somehow becoming imperfect?
Can perfection become imperfection?
If so, does that mean that God or nature has back slide into imperfection?