A Theory of Consciousness, Life and Computation

[labelwench]

..... thought may simply be a dynamic of the internal processes within the particle that animates the organism...enhanced by the 'machine' it has evolved from the elements in its environment.

Originally posted by THoR

As we do not come close to understanding the entire range of functions of any one type of cell in the human body, how much less do we know as we proceed farther down the scale of size, and the potentials therein contained.

A interesting thought, THoR. MOst elegant in it's simplicity stated, though far from a simple remark.

Thank you for sharing.

Kind regards,

Labelwench

[THoR]

So the inevitable question is: Where were YOU 6.4 trillion years ago...and did you have sex with that Denarian Altoid?

[austintorn@aol.com]

The Balance of Nothing

[SteveA]

So the inevitable question is: Where were YOU 6.4 trillion years ago...and did you have sex with that Denarian Altoid?

Excellent question.

I'd have to say that it wasn't the "Denarian Altoid"

If we consider that experiences, including thought itself could be procedurally generated, then basically no matter what the storyline is, it seems possible that there's a perfectly consistent and logic manner in which things could have happened, even if it did not fundamentally occur in the manner in which was perceived.

The logical problem though is how anything changes. Logic doesn't create itself nor (despite many claims to the contrary) can it count. It's fundamentally a static structure that never changes, yet time and change exist and this is the basic problem that's been encountered in physics. There's no consistent logical description of how time can operate.

I've analogized things with the movie the Matrix because it's a modern version of a rather time less tale, but the problem is that even the Matrix doesn't really work. In a sense, the aliens on the "outside" would still be inside the Matrix and life and death itself would be similarly "inside" the Matrix (just a bigger version )

If we first simply accept both time and logic as being entirely normal and compatible, then more or less anything is potentially possible in any form we could describe or imagine and even things we cannot currently describe or imagine as these can still exist as conscious events in awareness, but at the root of it is a pervasive paradox and in a sense, that's what the limits are and they arise as visibility/knowledge/memory over time.

If we removed time from the view, then certainly logic could remain, but as a frozen structure that couldn't view itself, I'd assume. On the other hand, if we remove logic, well then I don't think we could even begin to conceive of what such a state would be. I don't think consciousness would even be compatible with such a state - maybe awareness would still exist, but of what, I have no idea.

Anyway, yes, there was probably a Denarian Altoid encountered along the way and hopefully it was a fun encounter , but such a possibility would really still be "inside the Matrix", in my opinion.

Something to consider though is that these ideas are an exploration of possibilities and things beyond the immediate moment. There's a purpose to exploration that is driven by desires to explore etc.

It occurred to me that in many ways there's really no purpose in questioning things beyond any relevance to those desires motivating that search, so there is sort of a resolution that works, at least for me, and that's that there's a point beyond which things become irrelevant and the motivation to reach that point would not apply if anything exists beyond it, hence that's sort of "the wall" in that direction.

One possibility that I've been exploring is the idea of infinite predetermination - if form/logic/structure exists on unbounded scales, then maybe time could be compatible (I still don't think that really explains it).

The rest of it appears to be open skies and possibilities wherever you turn, so I think I "hit the limit" in terms of the range of possibilities that are relevant to things as they are now and it appears more productive to try to piece the rest of it together (yes, and maybe the Denarian Altoid can fit in too ... don't want to pass by any good opportunities )

On the other hand, a single speck of creativity/"randomness" could have potentially done all of it, but specifically what that is ... well I guess we're finding out. I don't think there's any way to describe this in any concrete manner as language, thought or perceptions etc. would appear to fail to encapsulate it. There's no descriptive box that would appear able to hold it either inside or out ... it would be incompatible with logic and ... well, probably a lot like the changes we experience in time.

[SteveA]

Regret Nothing

I agree. The closest I've come to regretting something was when I never tried. For me, if I knew I did what I could, given the circumstances, then there's really nothing to regret - burn the candle. It will go out, but it would be worse if it never got to be a candle. Imagine all you saw was a void, yet it was filled with candles, but you missed seeing them and not even one of them was ever lit. Now that would be something to regret.

[SteveA]

As we do not come close to understanding the entire range of functions of any one type of cell in the human body, how much less do we know as we proceed farther down the scale of size, and the potentials therein contained.

In a sense, we're not necessarily seeing it all either. Similar to the manner in which we only see the surface properties of an object in space, if something is highly complex, beyond an ability for the senses to immediately recognize it, then it can ironically appear small or insignificant - the depth and complexity goes unnoticed.

The molecules in a drop of water almost likely perform computations faster than our faster supercomputers, yet it just looks like a drop of water ... and that's only the properties that could be considered known.

Anyway, it's definitely an interesting landscape to explore and yes, I think it could definitely keep at least a few people busy trying to figure it out, then again it could also be quite simple.

[austintorn@aol.com]

The molecules in a drop of water almost likely perform computations faster than our faster supercomputers, yet it just looks like a drop of water ... and that's only the properties that could be considered known. — Steve

Everything happens according to keep the balance the perfect equation. THere can be no deviation. Hint: Thor is on the right track with the reciprocals.

[Mikal]

Hi, Mikal

Yes, emotions (or "e-motions") appear to be the driving force and similar to energy, they appear to share a common desire for growth and expansion. So in a sense, similar to ideas of a universal expansion, emotions press outward as well, though similar to gravity, I think they jostle around and "bump into" each other as well

On the other hand, there would appear to be no purpose or direction without emotion. We might consider science to be emotionless, but this is not true - it's a product of desires. To an extent, I think there's an intelligence to emotions and they have a purpose, but I don't know how well coordinated they are and I think that's where ones own intelligence serves a purpose, in coordinating those emotions and allowing that growth to occur, though you can't be dominated by a single emotion without encountering conflicts, nor can you ignore some emotions without paying for it in terms of encountering limits, stagnation and decay, every emotion has a purpose, direction (in an abstract sense) and the potential for growth.

The puzzle in life appears to be figuratively finding a "space" where they all have "homes" and don't need to quarrel or bicker (except for the few that enjoy quarreling and bickering - they can share a place together! LOL)

It appears the general manner to do this without blocking or altering any of these is to (once again, in figurative physics terms) coordinate or synchronize the components that desire to interact together without conflict (similar to providing a coherent/laser light or a new time reference to be shared between them - "traffic lights" (ugghhh ) so that they can avoid collisions), and the ones that don't desire this can be free to expand as space, while the ones that like to bump heads can be similarly left to remain with their desires - matter). Maybe turn "gravity" down a little so they don't keep sucking everything into a black hole?

Space, light, matter and evaporating black holes. It appears the universe has already solved the problem!

I think there's another "element" that encompasses all of this and it's more like a super fluid - fundamentally frictionless, it doesn't lose information and can allow any pathway or combinations of pathways to exist. Though for growth, it can't be constrained and is ultimately chaotic and difficult to predict, but in terms of an optimal "solution", future growth is something that doesn't need to be considered in the present - that's nature doing her job. Time needs the "welcome mat" to stay in front of the door, but it's simply those things already existing that are the significant components.

I think the game plan would be - 1) add more space (allow independence/freedom) and 2) provide greater visibility and a manner to coordinate between the components that desire this, 3) prepare for growth and adaptation of this is in a relatively fluid/dynamic and responsive manner and 4) let the rest stay and bump heads.

That's at least the best solution I can think of, though it's definitely not simple - especially #3, and it may be that #1 is dependent first upon resolving #2 and #3.

I don't think natural laws come with built in limits. The limits at any moment are required to exist in order that things exist relative to those limits - a perfect void has no limits, it's also only a void.

So how do you move the walls fast enough so that they're never actually encountered? Well, you need a space, you need a material to construct walls (matter) and a way to move them (coherent energy) and then you can potentially get a super fluid, but that's a finite and enclosed object without time though, so you need a space to preexist beyond this (before/beyond the Big Bang) and a lot of intelligence to keep it all dynamically growing and beyond that I'd have to say it's a wee bit of luck, though the odds might be biased ... the question is which way. Whenever randomness is added to the mix, things appear to stop there, so that's a pathway that's not very reliable - maybe label that one "emergency exit". I don't think there's a need for it as the rest can already be unbounded.

Well, I'd say if someone wants a challenge, there's a problem that likely provides it (I think most all of science is fundamentally studying the exact same structure, though it's reflected in a myriad number of ways).

“To thine own self be true.”

Emotional maturity occurs on levels that can be simplified…
1) The realization that my emotional states are not caused by you, situations, events, places or things—emotional responsibility.
2) Stopping to hide, stuff, suppress or repress what I feel—emotional honesty.
3) Experience and learning how to ventilate feelings—emotional openness.
4) Learning how to express any feeling appropriate to a situation—Emotional assertiveness.
5) Attaining the realization that it is impossible to have a good self-concept without a complimentary bad self-concept, understanding cause and effect—emotional understanding.
6) The realization to drop the burden of self-concept, self-image, self-constructs, group and thing concepts and to just be self as a sensing, experiencing living vessel—emotional detachment from self-concepts or the state of selflessness.


Thessalonians 4:4 "That every one of you should know how to posses his vessel in sanctification and honor;"

Regards Mikal

[austintorn@aol.com]

Advice to a college-bound person, for example:

Please to thine own self do be not true; instead, be on your best behavior.

[labelwench]

So the inevitable question is: Where were YOU 6.4 trillion years ago...and did you have sex with that Denarian Altoid?

Why, Jack, you curmudgeon,......

It is considered impolite to discuss a woman's age, and the delicate nature of recreation versus procreation.

Not many know about the Denarians, although considerably more people know about Altoids since the corporate merger, Altoids now being owned by Mars.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Altoids